Sustainability is a tricky topic to get right. Sometimes, the most eco-friendly packaging option is not an obvious choice, and can even damage a brand’s reputation if the customer isn’t educated on the matter.
Our founder, James, discusses the complexities of sustainable packaging with one of our clients, Stephen Sunley of TALA, who leads the way on all things sustainable.
Transcript: Sustainability, Packaging, and Perception — A Conversation with Tala
Alex Macfarlane (Calton Packing):
I try not to lead the customers when we have discussions about packaging and things like that. It’s understanding their business and their journey. And obviously for someone like yourself, the brand is about sustainable products — so it’s important that that replicates through everything.
Stephen Sunley (Tala):
Yeah, and again, it’s seeing it through the whole package. There’s no point doing a fantastic recycled cardboard box if you then put Sellotape onto it or staples into it — because if that then goes into the recycling, that contaminates whatever’s trying to be recycled.
So, you need to make that transition to the paper tapes. There’s no chemicals, there’s no glues in the packaging as well. Otherwise, there’s no point making all these recycled boxes if then they actually can’t be recycled at the end.
Alex Macfarlane (Calton Packing):
The primary point of packaging is to get it to your customers. The minimum you expect from it is to get your products to customers in really good condition. There’s no point using a fungus-based eco-friendly in-box protection when you’ve got 20 damages — because the CO2 footprint to keep replacing that product, to keep doing it — that’s a massive part of what we do.
Obviously, making sure the damage rates for yourself is going to be relatively low.
James Hyde (James and James):
Steve, I guess for you — I’ve seen some companies shipping in paper bags and polymer. And I guess that’s a nice idea, but again — how far do you go? If you stick that on a plane, and it’s getting wet, and it’s sat for four or five days wet, you’re getting the products damaged.
Stephen Sunley (Tala):
Yeah, I think the technology’s getting there. And there are improvements. I’m seeing a lot of new methods, new materials, new treatments that can be added to paper as well — that are going to get paper there in terms of durability and adding a level of water repellence.
We are shipping globally — a global package could be on and off multiple vehicles, trains, planes, trucks, lots of pairs of hands. It needs to withstand that journey.
But it goes back to a point — it is bigger, it’s heavier. All that movement is adding to that carbon footprint.
There are new technologies and compostable materials, but again, shipping those around the world — not everyone has composting available.
Alex Macfarlane (Calton Packing):
No, and also there is a debate — compostable can cause microplastics, which then go into the ground, consumed by fish, then we consume the fish.
We’re all working towards advancing these things — but you have to realise when something’s there, and when it’s not quite there. And not to jump on a bandwagon. Make sure it represents your brand — because it needs to do what you want it to do.
James Hyde (James and James):
I guess one of the challenges from your very customer-focused brand is the reality of — what’s the best carbon, lowest pollution total solution versus what’s the perception the customer gets?
If it’s not in paper — it’s not eco-friendly in some customers’ minds. And they don’t care it’s been on a jet plane. They don’t care that the paper took all this time to bleach and process — they just want it in paper because that’s their mindset.
Stephen Sunley (Tala):
You’ve hit the nail on the head. We can ship a package to a customer in a nice beautiful brown paper bag, and they go: “Great, this is a really eco-friendly company, I know what to do with this, I can put this in my recycling.” And you’ve made that custom happy, and you thinl that’s great.
But that’s really, I suppose, the easy option because it ticks that box.
Alex Macfarlane (Calton Packing):
And that’s the challenge for you as a business, isn’t it? It’s not you knowing what’s right — it’s transferring that into educating the customer.
And the easy option is to go down the paper mailing bags route — but actually, that’s seriously going to have an impact on the carbon footprint of your business.
It’s a hard balance between consumer perception and actual company drivers.
Stephen Sunley (Tala):
We hold ourselves accountable to our customers. We’ll regularly get contacts going, “Why are you using plastic bags?” And we go — well, they are 100% recycled, they’re 100% recyclable.
There are other options — but actually, at the moment, although it may not be the obvious solution, this is still giving us the best solution for what we need — to get our products to our customers in good condition the first time.
We recently did a product range that was actually made from Lyocell materials — it’s a wood pulp. It’s really interesting because it’s just a byproduct from the milling industry. They have the pulp left, and we were able to turn that into materials and make clothes out of it.
So again, there are examples where these things can work in harmony — where you can take some of these agricultural wastes or byproducts and turn them into something new.
But recycling is a bit of a red herring in there. It is so energy-consuming to actually go through that recycling process.
James Hyde (James and James):
Yeah, and what you said about reusing waste from one process to make something else — that’s true recycling, and that’s the one that’s got the least impact. Because you’ve got to pay to dispose of the product anyway.
I’m thinking unexpectedly — the shipping boxes do for us. We’ve got return glue strips on them. You see a lot of companies now using two glue strips, so you can reuse the packaging on the return journey.
Now that’s obviously not perfect — but at least you get to use it twice if you’re going to return a product. Or you can keep it and return something else.
That reusing is almost so much better than recycling
Stephen Sunley (Tala):
Yes, completely but again, it needs that customer education to go with it.
Alex Macfarlane (Calton Packing):
It’s like the truest form of recycling isn’t it, to reuse something.
Alex Macfarlane (Calton Packing):
Your product is being an active product — the amount of times it’s going to be washed, maybe compared to say a coat or something like that — you really have to get your technologies in your product really honed, don’t you?
Stephen Sunley (Tala):
Absolutely. Activewear goes through a lot of stress — squats, gym sessions — the clothing’s going through a lot of stress.
And intrinsically, a recycled product doesn’t hold the same strength that the original product had. A lot of our recycled materials just don’t have that inherent strength.
So to actually make them withstand the use is a real challenge.
Otherwise, if your normal leggings last you five years but your recycled ones last you 12 months — then it’s not really gaining anything back for the planet.
James Hyde (James and James):
Yeah, I guess if you’ve got to make five pairs — it’s probably worse than making one decent pair originally.
Stephen Sunley (Tala):
Absolutely. You might as well have made the one pair originally.
So we have to find ways of actually getting that strength back into the product. We do use mixes of little bits of Lycra and elastic — things which help to hold that fabric together.
But then the challenge is — obviously, you wash it a lot. If you’re getting sweaty in the gym, you then wash your clothes, and obviously then you’re into microplastics.
Microplastics aren’t exclusive to the original clothes. When it’s recycled and made into something else — you’re still going to have that issue.
James Hyde (James and James):
Coming off in the washing machine actually creates some microplastics?
Stephen Sunley (Tala):
Yes, so that comes straight off the clothes, straight out of the washing machine, and into the water streams.
There are things you can do. Some washing machines will have a certain level of filtration to take that out. But you can also get mesh bags to wash your clothing in, which will help capture some of those microplastics.
Alex Macfarlane (Calton Packing):
Yeah, I’ve never even considered microplastics from the washing process. Obviously, I’m familiar with microplastics in the packaging industry — but not from washing clothes.
Stephen Sunley (Tala):
Yeah, so it’s definitely — anything synthetic is worth getting a filter bag for. You bag it all up before you wash it, and it just traps those microplastics. And it would just be like fluff.
James Hyde (James and James):
What do you do with that fluff? I can see someone washing the bag out to get the fluff out the bag.
Stephen Sunley (Tala):
Yes, so really you just need to capture it and pop it into the bin. It’s so much better than having it go into the water course.
Alex Macfarlane (Calton Packing):
Yes, absolutely. So tell me about the journey. Have you evolved more in the last two or three years than you had previously — because the technologies are now catching up with the brand?
Stephen Sunley (Tala):
Yeah, it’s definitely been an interesting time to grow a brand. We started in May 2019, so we’re not even three years old yet. And for most of that period, it feels like we’ve been in a pandemic — so it’s not necessarily been the easiest environment.
We couldn’t visit people like yourselves, we couldn’t get out to see packaging suppliers. Everything had to be done over video conferencing. That made it a lot more challenging to move at the pace we would have liked in some areas.
But we’ve definitely grown. We know some of the weaknesses we’ve got, and we know what we’d really like.
Even within clothing, there are some really interesting new technologies coming through. I’ve seen some examples of leggings made from seaweed material — which, again, is just a plant. If that grows naturally, you can just pick it and turn it into something. That’s far better than using oil to make synthetic clothes.
It’s definitely been an interesting period to try and grow a brand.
James Hyde (James and James):
Alex and I were chatting just before this, and something really stuck with me. You said: a lot of companies build the product first, and then only think about fulfilment and packaging at the very end. So when did Tala start thinking about how you were going to ship efficiently, package efficiently — all those elements that really make the brand?
Stephen Sunley (Tala):
Yeah, absolutely. I think from the start, the brand DNA had that vision. Our founder saw a gap in the market for sustainable activewear, and the mission was always to stay true to ourselves — to make sure that carried through everything we did.
That’s not to say we got it all right from day one. There were mistakes. We tried things that didn’t work. Technologies moved, even in a short space of time.
And sometimes, it comes down to cost — you’ve got an option that’s 5p, and a better option that’s 10p. So yeah, we’ve had to sacrifice a bit of margin to do the right thing.
Alex Macfarlane (Calton Packing):
Did you always fulfil orders in-house? Were there ever moments where the founder was packing them at home?
Stephen Sunley (Tala):
So, we weren’t quite back-room levels, but we did start a lot smaller.
We had another fulfilment provider for probably about the first six months — but we quickly outgrew them.
Alex Macfarlane (Calton Packing):
How did you know you’d reached that point?
Stephen Sunley (Tala):
One of the big challenges for our business is we do product drops — we launch new collections, and we’ve got a fantastic following on social media.
So when we launch something, there’s real hype and real buzz. We can go from doing 100 orders one day to 4,000 orders the next.
That’s very hard to manage in-house without relying heavily on temps, agencies, and trying to flex your workforce overnight.
That’s really what led us to say — we’ve outgrown where we are, and we need someone that can flex with us. That’s what James & James offered us.
James Hyde (James and James):
At what point did packaging become a real consideration? Was it right from the start?
Stephen Sunley (Tala):
Yeah, I’d say really from day one.
It had to be a sustainable product, made in a sustainable way, and shipped in sustainable packaging.
We didn’t get it all perfect. We didn’t get it all right from the start. But we’ve learned, we’ve evolved, and we’ve kept moving with it.
As we’ve grown, we’ve been able to do more — hold factories accountable, push for better standards.
It’s really hard to go to a factory and say, “We want 500 leggings, but can you put them all in recycled plastic, pack them in recycled boxes, use special labels, etc.?” For them, it’s not worth the effort.
But once you’re ordering 5,000 or 10,000 units, it’s different. Now they’ll do it — or risk losing your business. That’s when we can really drive the standards we want.
And as we’ve grown over the last couple of years, we’ve been able to work with some bigger factories — ones that we couldn’t have worked with a couple of years ago. They’re already further along that sustainability journey.
Our outerwear factory in Vietnam, for example, is run from solar panels. They do a lot of work within the local community and environment — maintaining high standards.
Alex Macfarlane (Calton Packing):
That’s obviously a key driver for you guys — the product you’ve got, the brand values you hold.
Stephen Sunley (Tala):
Absolutely. I’d love to say we make everything in a factory that’s solar-powered, with 100% recycled materials everywhere — but the world’s not quite there yet.
Alex Macfarlane (Calton Packing):
No. And I think you have to acknowledge that — we have to grow this brand, we have to do what we can do, but it has to achieve what we’re trying to achieve. Not just tick a box for the sake of it.
Sustainability is going to have a massive drive in manufacturing, but it’s about being realistic too.
James Hyde (James and James):
Yeah — I guess that’s the challenge. In manufacturing, packaging — the whole sustainability piece — there’s always a trade-off.
There’s no magic bullet solution. It’s not as simple as saying, “We’ll do everything in paper, therefore it’s perfect.”
There are multiple factors to consider. It’s about balancing one against the other — to come to what you feel, or what the business feels, is the best solution that ticks as many boxes as you can.
Stephen Sunley (Tala):
Yes, absolutely. And obviously one of the challenges with manufacturing is you’re operating in multiple countries — so you need packaging that can be sourced locally in each of those places.
James Hyde (James and James):
There are two aspects, especially when you look at social media and customer perception . There’s a lot of businesses get a bad reputation because they’re using sustainable practices in theory, but the execution isn’t what the customer sees.
We know from research that 90% of customers wouldn’t buy from a company that didn’t use sustainable packaging.
But we also try to use it not just to avoid negative feedback — but to actually engage people positively. Make it part of the brand story.
Stephen Sunley (Tala):
Yeah, so we’re are essentially a brand that was formed and founded with social media at its heart — so I guess that accountability is even more present for you.
Social media is a fantastic tool — it’s what’s got us to where we are now. But equally, if you do something wrong, it’s there for everyone to see very quickly.
We’ve all seen those examples where someone orders something online and it arrives in 20 separate boxes — and it goes straight on social media.
That’s not the story you want out there.
We’re definitely accountable to our customers in that respect — and that includes how we get products to them, how we package them, and the story that packaging tells.
Alex Macfarlane (Calton Packing):
We run a whitepaper every year — and we get more and more engagement each time. Customers are increasingly prepared to interact, rate the packaging, and share feedback.
Social media is almost free media — but like you said, if something’s wrong, it’s amplified very quickly.
James Hyde (James and James):
Exactly — and customers are starting to hold businesses accountable directly. Sending a letter and not getting a response isn’t very painful.
Alex Macfarlane (Calton Packing):
But send an image through social media, tag the brand — that has clout. That forces accountability much quicker.
James Hyde (James and James):
Steve — just to wrap things up — where do you think the future is for packaging at Tala?
Stephen Sunley (Tala):
I think there are certainly new technologies coming through. Compostable materials are improving — and science is going to lead a lot of this.
But even without changing materials, using technology like packing machines or automation that right-size packaging to the product — that’s a massive starting point.
Even if you’re using the same material — if you’re using less of it — that’s going to drastically reduce the environmental impact.
Really, it’s about using technology to use less of what we’re currently using — and letting science push new materials forward in parallel.
Alex Macfarlane (Calton Packing):
Yeah, and the knock-on effect of that is huge — if everyone uses right-sized packaging, carriers can fit more parcels per van, reduce CO2 emissions — all of that.
Stephen Sunley (Tala):
Exactly. Everything just shrinks down.
We’re working with our factory in Vietnam at the moment — for next season’s outerwear collection, we’ve asked them to vacuum-pack everything.
By doing that, we’ll about halve the size of the products when packed.
James Hyde (James and James):
Yeah, if it’s going by air or even by sea — halving it means 50% fewer planes, fewer containers, fewer emissions.
Stephen Sunley (Tala):
Yeah, so we bring that by sea as it’s the most carbon efficient method to bring it from there.
But if we can half the size of that shipment, and then it’s half the size again when it leaves here to go to our customers. That’s a huge impact, for something that’s actually quite simple and relatively easy to do.
Alex Macfarlane (Calton Packing):
Was that something the manufacturer offered you — or something you pushed for?
Stephen Sunley (Tala):
Something we’ve pushed for.
With our first outerwear collection last year — it was small, a trial run — we didn’t have the influence to get factories to change processes like that.
But now we’re working on next season’s collection — and we really hope to get that vacuum-packing in place.
Not just for us — but once the factory has that process in place, they can use it for other clients too.
Alex Macfarlane (Calton Packing):
Absolultey.
James Hyde (James and James):
Brilliant. Steve, Alex — thank you both very much.
I know you’ve got a lot of orders to get out — appreciate you taking the time to join us today.
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